Rosewicket Wicca Coven

Ok so i was reading some stuff online about this and I got a very mixed type of opinion from what i've read from some it's seems that yes you must be initiated into a coven, and other's that self initiation is fine and anyone can be wiccan,I'm aware that this is more of personal opinion that anything else and for example in some traditions such as Alexandrian and Gardnerian trads it is required but i'd would like to hear your thoughts.

I myself believe that self initiation is fine,But again want to know what you guys think.

Well, MoonAlphena.. I dont think you HAVE to be part of a coven. Everyone has their own veiw and way of things.. and everyone you ask may feel a different way to explain. We all do what wors best for us, if you want to work solo or dont have a coven around you.. then your still concidered a Wiccan, if you think of yourself as one. Also, keep in mind.. many things are on the internet. Anyone could have posted that, and that is their opinion.

I dont think you would have to be.. but if you wanted to be in one, Rosewicket is a coven.

True that i guess all that really matters is how the individual feels about it.

Yea, are you in one?

No im not actually and that's what lead me to ask to question lols. Hopefully i will be some day but its hardly been a year and a day since i first found wicca i've got time^^

I believe that ultimatly, it depends on the individual. Maybe for some people, working in a coven is the only way to connect with the divine, but I think for most of us we can connect with them just as well in other ways.

Think about it, everything that a coven is meant to do is supposed to happen between one person and divinity. Maybe some people need a coven to work a certain way or connect perfectly, and some can make do with other things.

http://www.wicca-chat.com/wiccan_belief.htm pay attention to mainly no.8 all i needed to hear haha said by witches themselves.

This doesn't really say much about beign in a coven, just that saying you have a certain degree doesn't make you a witch. Just like any other skill, it's about who you are and what you do to be that way. An artist is an artist even if they don't take art classes and own the fanciest paint brushes - so isn't a Wiccan still Wiccan if they don't belong to a coven or own a shiney new athame?

in my opinion you dont have to go through initiation unless you are going to be part of a coven because the initiation process is important for others to trust you and you to trust others but initiation to degrees is unnessasary like Chi said  "A Wiccan is still a Wiccan if they don't belong to a coven or own a shiney new athame?"

i agree in my mind i think that people might just be looking for help in their path as well as themselves. but yes they are wiccan at heart without a coven because i know i am!

I was brought up as a Christian and often found people questioning the fact that 'If you don't attend church, how can you be Christian.' Which I totally disagree with anyway.

Most religions try to dictate somthing to it's followers and enforce some sort of rule, and to me that makes it a dictatorship as opposed to a path. A path should be such that. It is a a journey shaped by yourself and a way to connect with everyone around you and ultimately the devine in yourself. Whether you achieve this as part of a group or on your own matters not.

If your heart and sould tells you you're Wiccan, then you certainly are. =)

As with all things on this path, it is personal to the follower.

Follow your heart and wherever that takes you is the right way!

I have never been part of a coven... Perhaps I will, though it's very difficult to find one local to me, but I feel no less Wiccan than someone who is.

To those who say one can only be considered a Witch if they have been initiated by a Witch, I ask "who initiated the very first Witch?!"

A thought used by Raymond Buckland and there cannot be many who wouldn't consider him Wiccan/Witch.

Remember.. Never doubt yourself or your beliefs because of someones opinion, for it is simply just someone elses opinion!

=D

Happy Litha!!

i totally agree with that. yu are who you are and no one can change that so why would anyone say different about your path.

I do see the appeal to an initiation, though I don't find it necessary and I do think that a solitary can have an experience that achieves a similare 'hightened' attuning to the earth and divine.

That said, perhaps initiation is an eye opening thing for people. I would not know. There are mysteries surrounding it that I find romantic, exciting, and wonderful. But there are also things that come along with it that I know simply wouldn't work for me, so I simply look for romance, excitement, and wonder in my own practices; which are self-dedicated, self-managed, divine-initiated, and earth-serving.

Being a Witch or Wiccan is not something that is given to you by another Witch. It is in your heart - if you are truly on the right path than it has always been there and always will be. Initiation is a cerimony that can happen in a moment. But it is also a life long (perhaps multipul lives long) process of attuning with the earth, the divine, your inner self, and probably more. If a coven doesn't initiate you, I'm sure the divine will.

Alright, I'm putting in my two cents on this subject...

To be Wiccan in the traditional sense (and even apart from British and other Traditional covens), you have to be initiated.  This is NOT just to show your dedicaiton to the Craft or to become a part of a group.  You are initiated into the Mysteries.  Every single Mystery tradition has initiation, and Wicca is a Mystery tradition.  These are pretty much facts when it comes to Traditional Wicca.  Initiation also ties you in with the group mind.  For example: when I was initiated, I felt a tight pulling on my chest towards my covenmates.  It would grow into a throb when we were apart and would dull to a simple 'hi i'm here' feeling when we were together.

I'm also going to rant a bit about self-initiation...from the reading i've done, self-initiation isn't possible.  Self-dedication is.  But initiation is something given to you by another person or creature.  That's not to say that maybe the Earth or spirits can't initiate you, but I think that's a bit sketchy.

Now, when you get into eclectic Wicca, things get difficult.  Does initiation apply?  What about those who want to study but aren't near covens?  What about them?

I'm going to sound like a jerk, but from all the interaction I've done and the reading (of the older Wiccan texts, not the newer ones--and I do consider Cunningham to be newer), if you aren't initiated you are not Wiccan.  The religion is a Mystery tradition founded on the concept that you are initiated into the Mysteries.  If you aren't initiated, then you might be what some people call a Dedicant or some call a Seeker...

Also, my view of initiation, which is a bit Traditional I know, is not influenced by my own initiation.  Since my coven and I are all teens, my initiation wouldn't be considered...legitimate by most Traditional Wiccan covens.  I came to this conclusion about initiation and Wicca by doing lots of reading, getting frustrated by all the arguements, and finally deciding to go with Gardner and Alex Sanders, as well as Vivianne Crowley. 

I think the best...label to give yourself is a witch with Wiccan leanings or a Wiccan-influenced pagan...but not Wiccan.  I'm probably going to get people telling me I'm wrong, but I'm going to go with the daddy of Wicca, Gerald Gardner, and say to be Wiccan, you need that initiation.

For the record, I identify as a goddess worshipping witch with Feri and Reclaiming leanings, not as Wiccan.  I've studied it a lot though.

I started studying Wicca, Witchcraft, Paganism amongst other things in 1996.

"Initiation" in essence, is a modern invention linked to religion and is the same sort of dogma associated with Christianity that turns so many followers from that path. Me, for one, included.

The burning debate within our community on this subject is something that will eventually halt the growing and thriving of Wicca as a whole. It WILL become another religion with "in-fighting" and become fractued.

Yes, it was Gardner that "decided" (and it WAS!) on initiation being the only route into Wicca, but the trouble I have with that is the fact that the whole religion, path and following of Wicca/Withcraft predates the man by eons. Even his own "student" Raymond Buckland has voiced his opinion of initiation being very over-rated and un-necessary to be able to call yourself a follower of Wicca.

No-one can tell anyone else what label to attatch to themselves.

The definition of the word Wicca derives from "Wise" and I can't see anyone needing to be accepted by a general group/society in order to learn from a book for instance.

I am disillusioned with the opinion of so many initiated Wiccan's who constantly "remind" solitary/eclectic Witches that they "are not Wiccan, but  hey, no-offence!"

For a nature revering, anti-dogmatic religion, there is so much emphasis being placed on rules over the last few years that it WILL begin to turn potential new followers away.

I for one will embrace anyone initiated/dedicated or not, as a fellow Wiccan, as my ancestors of this green British land I walk upon will have done since the beginning; before there was any label attatched to any follower of anything at all.

The Christian bible was written by men, and cannot be the true word of any Divine. The same can be said of Wicca and it's beliefs.

No-one can tell me what I am or am not, label me this way or that; only the Divine inside me can do that, and it tell's me I am Wiccan, regardless of what any rule, initiate, coven or even cowan can tell me.

People will cast their chosen path aside if the community continues to think in this way.

A way that reminds me of the elitism of The Church and it's ministers.

An opinion echoed by so many Wiccans/WItches(!) from all countries.

As the saying goes: Who initiated the first Wiccan? No-one, so does Wicca exist?

I think that much is obvious.

Meniskos, I am not having a go or argument with you, but this is something I've heard so many times and am actually beginning to find it offensive, so I won't be responding on this thread again.

I am Jet Moonlite, I am not initiated and I am WICCAN, whoever decides to disagree with that statement is simply disagreeing with the Divine.

To clarify, so I do believe that initiation is a central part of Wicca, but that is not to say that if you haven't undergone some form of initiation you aren't Wiccan.

In the traditional sense, I suppose you are not, and you are correct that there are wiccan mysetries and an opening up to lore that happens in initiation.

However, many initiations out there simply don't work. They are miguided, diluded, unaffective, or manipulative. many covens are inaffective, if you ask me, they are not buiilt on tradition. Coven wiutchcraft is meant to carrty teh mysteries and traditions, and yet few of them do this. I'm all for modifying practice as is fit; however, the coven practice of today, with a few exceptions, seems to wear all the pride and outward appearence of coven practice without any of the real traditonal hard workj and rewards. Covens that can opperate affectively and honestly I do respect, ones that take all teh glory for none of the growth are ones I do not.I do believe that there is an attuning and synching with the earth that does mean you can be initiated by a non physical force, or that perhaps you can grow spiritually to the point that initiation is irrelevent to you, but it is not as dramatic or frequent as we like to believe..

Obviously, spirits or divine figures had to initiate someone - at least the first of each coven tradition, so that they then had the power to initiate others. The idea that only a human rose to the level of power to iniate others, and that there must be a clear line of initiation from them to the witches of today, is that which better suits a cult than the fastest growing neopagan faith in the world.

Traditionally, because Wicca was based on coven work, much like it's Christian cousin, initation was necessary. However, it is commonly accepted today that wicca has no central power, and all recognition to coven leaders is given at will by the practitioner and not by identifying as someone of the faith.

It's the difference between Christianity of hundreds of years ago and the Christianity of today. Wicca has undergone such transformation, becomming less centralized and more slack in terms of who can wear the label, and likely changes of greater magnitude. I would never claim to be a member of Traditional Wicca (Very few people can), or even New Age Wicca, rather Wiccan-Influcenced (along with all the other things I practice) and that is out of respect for the traditions, but the knowledge that it is almost irrelevent. The Neo Pagan movement is very future oriented, so those traditions have little affect on us now, but they need respect and revenerence for those who still follow them.

Jet Moonlite is correct in that religions are founded by people. People wrote bibles, prayers, hymns, and the rede; so they are only as true and divine as the men and women who wroite them. People are responsible for religious wars and not religions. From this we can conclude that, though people and followers are central parts of any faith, they are not the most important.

I agree with some of the points you make Chi, and I'm sorry my post was so harsh.  But to me, taking away the initiation aspect of Wicca is a bit like taking away communion from Catholicism...it's not exactly Catholic. 

I'm sorry I offended you, Jet Moonlight, but I'm not sorry about disagreeing and (now) arguing some of the points you made.

Initiation is not a modern invention of Christianity or any of the Abrahamic faiths.  It was practiced by our pagan ancestors in their cults.  Wicca is, and whether or not Gardner was intiatied into an old religion or blended his own, a Mystery initiatory tradition. 

I just don't think it's...accurate for those that aren't initiated to call themselves Wiccan.  Wiccan-influenced.  A witch.  Still, if you want to call yourself Wiccan, go ahead.  I think that people need to remember that it isn't always the religion that needs to change for them--they might need to accept a new spirituality that fits better.  My opinion, that's all.  Again, sorry if I offend.

On the in-fighting in the Wiccan community: that happens in every community.  It is a part of life.  People don't always agree and there are those with conservative views (like me--and oh goddess I never thought I would say I had a conservative view) and those with more liberal views.  When Buckland gave his tradition over to Mark Ventimigalia (think that's his name), many people left the tradition because Ventimigalia vehemently spoke out against gays and animal sacrifice.  I'm really sorry I offended you, Jet, but the traditional view of Wicca needed to at least be voiced.  Acting like it doesn't exist or is just 'superiority complexes' when it is in fact based on the very traditions of Wicca isn't a good way to go about it.  That being said, I was far too-stand-offish with my original post. I apologize.

I think there is one central error within the Initiation argument - not here, but in the whole Pagan movement- that could easily make this clearer.

Initiation is central to Wicca. But when you are initiated, you are not being initiated into Wicca, but a specific Wicca TRADITION.

Now, the difference is Wicca is a blief. Very broad, doesn't pick and chose members, and can be practiced by anyone. It can even be practiced in part without a person knowing it's Wicca.

However a Wiccan tradition is based on people. This is coven and culturally based. This requires a line of schooled, practiced and initiated witches, often beginning in europe some time ago.

Now, most solitaries blend the two to some extent. We borrow from traditions and write our own ethics - We practice Wicca as a belief, not a tradition.

That is the real arguement here, whether you need to be initiated to Wicca - because to some Wicca is a belief, and to many it is a tradition. Most of us actually lie somewhere between the two in varrying degress. To truly practice Wicca as a tradition, initiation is necessary; but to practice Wicca as a belief, it is not - I do believe that the Wiccan mysteries can be experiences in other ways, perhaps even these ways can be greater to the person in question.

The problem with Initiation is that it is a very personal subject that often questiosn the identity of people on their side - and no one wants to question their spiritual idenity challenged. I do think there is a gap between Traditional and Modern Wicca, and they need to be recognized. To say "I'm Wiccan" to a third degree gardarian preistess may not be the best choice if you imply that you're traditional - the differences need to be respected. But this is true for the traditional covens looking down on younger people or solitaries as well - perhaps, if these groups as a whole stopped sticking their noses up and learned from eachother the conflict would go away.

Oh my goddess why can't I be as articulate as you...because that's pretty much how I feel. 

There's a gap of language understanding between trads and moderns.  If we can bridge this gap, make our language make sense to both parties, a lot less hurt feelings would ensue.  And a lot less headaches.

i do think that it is important very important to be initated if that is what you so choose. i want to be but my fiance doesn't want me to join  a coven which is fine so i want to start one. but i do believe that if you have a strong connection with the Divine then you are wiccan at heart. i mean isn't that what really matters and counts?